Public sentiment on India's defense procurement showcases a complex mix of cautious optimism and underlying skepticism. While many express appreciation for detailed analyses and hope for enhanced military capabilities through self-reliance, significant concerns remain regarding corruption, inefficiencies, and bureaucratic hurdles that could impact national security and the industry's growth. There's a clear public desire for reforms and a more effective procurement approach.

Indian Government

Indian Defense Ministry

Domestic Defense Manufacturers

More people in India need to know about the Chandigarh lobby

Yatha0804

I haven't verified what you've said, but in general I'd say that as citizens we should never put any institution, be it the government, army, judiciary, etc. on some untouchable pedestal on account of a misplaced sense of patriotism.

At the end of the day, any institution is as good as the people that work there, and any person has the potential of being corruptible. That being said, we shouldn't have a bias in believing that everyone is corrupt, but at the same time we must keep an open mind &amp; scrutinize every bit of information that comes to us.

Regular-Good-6835

Let's file an RTI and seek government's response to why they rejected domestic good quality products in favour of foreign expensive ones

[deleted]

Don't forget about the infamous Delhi Lobby, Southern Command lobby, Mumbai Lobby, and Chandigarh lobby.

Ramdulari_ka_hubby

In terms of amount of money, the Army is at #1. Judiciary is a distant 2nd and no I haven't pulled this number out of thin air. I do know at least 5-6 army officers, they themselves admit it. Btw, in all the defense deals everyone gets a cut from minister to general to as low as the major of the army.

Fun-Tangerine2140

I blog on national security. I think the reality is more nuanced than saying \`Indian-made good, imported bad' - Therefore if we buy imported, Army is the most corrupt organization in India.

There are irregularities in defense. Its in the public domain, in the form of CAG reports on for e.g. CSD or ECHS - not unsubstantiated allegations that \`no one talks about'. There are Parliamentary reports on defense procurement. Certainly our system can and should improve, but we need to take into account ground reality.

We can avoid all corruption in defense hardware procurement by following the Russian or Chinese model, where everything is made by defense PSUs. Our experience with that was terrible. We had (by and large) bad products at inflated prices. If you rely only on 1 foreign country (USSR) we can suffer when there are geopolitical shifts. We are trying to get into a model of Indian PSU + Private sector, competing (and collaborating) with different International suppliers.  
More suppliers and market forces, reduces corruption more than hoping that an organization will have a different moral character than the rest of the country.

The reality of military hardware is that supply chains are very international. Our domestically  
products products have a high imported component. The Marut project suffered because we could not design and make a good engine locally - not can we for the Tejas.  
Our imported products have offsets where there is some domestic manufacturing which gives us both capability and export revenue (that's why our biggest customer for our defense exports is the US).

I don't see a problem in getting a small number of Apache with ordering a much larger number of Prachand. They have different roles. The Apache, being heavier is not meant for high altitude.  
It' had not \`crashed multiple times', it has been tested to see to what extent it can be used in high altitude. We'd rather know now than when a war starts.

Dean_46

yeah I lived my whole life in army camps it's is definitely corrupt to the bone

Broad-Cold-4729

Arjun tank - sand in engine/driving in reverse for 10 km?

Pilatus import - this was widely reported

IAC - aircraft lift sized to fit only one Russian aircraft

Kaveri engine - to this day still no test bed. Have to take it to Russia to test.

MMRCA/MRFA/Rafale - will do everything instead of investing locally. Will do only piecemeal orders and then complain about cost.

This list is endless.

spannerhorse

I’ve stopped following defence affairs and it has done wonders to my BP.

classicdecoy

Yup it is as corrupt as the bureaucracy and the government, and as inefficient as any Sarkar office. Bharat Karnad and Anit Mukherjee have elaborated on it, and the army people are as careerist as an average IAS

hermannbroch

 hey man just wanted to know to do the indian army really sexually assault the women of north Eastern villages

SensitiveCress9614

I heard defence and judicial are one of the most corrupt because of lack of accountability. Talking against them also takes effort and are not easily punishable. I don't know if you're referring to the same thing.

p_ke

Corruption is everywhere and in every country, the problem is not that people are corrupt, problem is there isn’t strict laws and punishments for corruption. The most punishment is getting suspended and transferred to different locations.  Unfortunately most laws were inherited from British era as it is in constitution as it was not possible to change every law after independence. This wasn’t done intentionally but it was just not possible to change what was running for 200 years. 

However Britishers did draft laws to destroy India, they had their own evil motive to draft such laws.

I have done business in various countries, even in china corruption is far less just due to strict laws and punishments.

akash_kava

Just read the "opinion" of that manmohan guy yesterday in the news article it was completely planted article by Chandigarh lobby.
Also top army brass is same. Highly corrupt and inefficient infiriority complex ridden.
Thinking everything imported maaal is great and every indian things is bad.
Just look at apache they didn't even do high altitude trial and crashed, and LCH trials are goig on for years and haven't been ordered yet.
The same case was with LCA.
Although parrikar saved it by showing off the airforce throat.

This readymade import good mentality wont go in distant future.
They argue that atmanirbharta should not be at the expense of national security.
We have been importing fighters for almost century and haven't been able to build force that can safeguard our national security yet.
Expensive 36 Rafael for $15 billion will never be able to safeguard our national security.
Only homegrown systems in mass numbers can.

Fascist-Reddit69

Have never checked anything abt this. I think it would be great to create a long, well researched post on the corruption with at least some citations. so that it is a comprehensive list of the corrupt goingons in the upper echelons.

evammist

While I agree with most things you said, I disagree on the buying Apache part.


Apache is designed for a different altitude warfare and is as lethal as any chopper could ever be.


It isn't designed for Himalayan altitudes.


While buying Apache's is a great move especially keeping our north-western neighbour in mind... it has nothing to do with buying lch's. Two different choppers of two different classes for two different purposes and conditions. Its an apples to oranges comparison.


But yeah with everything else I mostly agree.

Murky-Hand-4723

Indian military is making great progress!

[For example new generation of soldiers is now going to be mostly parasite-free](https://www.downtoearth.org.in/news/rural-water-and-sanitation/is-india-really-open-defecation-free-here-s-what-numbers-say-77918).

But for reals, it's not possible to be an extremely poor country and have a decent military. India's been slowly becoming a middle income country, and at this point it can have money, it can have industry, and it can have literate and healthy soldiers capable of using modern equipment. Without development, there's no hope anyway.

Also relevant - [did you know India already has higher male life expectancy than Russia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy)? (68 vs 66)

&gt; I can't believe Indians really think they can use Indian Rupee to pay international arm dealer. FFS, even Russians who are under the worst sanctions ever, are not even taking Rupees as payment, why the fuck would LM or Boeing take it?



🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣



That is fucking gold.



When it comes to India's military procurement and their overall competency of their force structure I honestly can see China beating the shit out of them quickly.

bacggg

yixinli88

I think that the biggest benefit for China to keep the Himalayan conflict alive except for good old nationalism is to financially ruin India like Soviet.

China can afford to have troops running up and down on their side without much financial burden. India must spend much more too keep up and drains their funds. Politically the conflict puts pressure on bigger military spending in India which will do more damage than the actual conflict with a hundred deaths and a few sq km of frozen rock changing hands.

Puzzled-Bite-8467

*the US spent arond 10% its Federal spending？*

&amp;#x200B;

I think it should be about 17%.

adminPASSW0RD

FYI Indian now has no minesweepers because of a botched procurement plan. All China has to do to defeat the Indian navy is literally dump few thousand mines FFS. Who the frick cares about a fancy pants aircraft carriers if you can't clear mines in your back yard.

Soon they will have 6 diesel submarines because project 75i is delayed and they will have to retire the old subs in this decade.

Procurement pay in rupees is crazy. Imagine you walk into a car dealership and offer to pay in coupons that you can only use in Walmart for example.

Sakurasou7

Wtf is with the horrifically bad spelling in this shitpost.

This isn't the subreddit for shitposts. r/NonCredibleDefense is the place to go for that.

Speedster202

are you the chinese guy obsessed with India ?

otaku2297

&gt;Indian goverment is trying to save every dollar they can

yes we do, but doesn't, or rather shouldn't, this be the goal of all govts?

&gt;In 2022 alone, they will have to pay $256 billion foreign debt. 

While this is true, the sentence seems to point out that this is normal, from your own link the total debt is a bit less than USD 600 bn, and 43% of which is due this year. Multiple long term loans are to be repaid in these two years and this is not the norm.

&gt; And India has trade defdilt with all most every single country you can think of. 

While I get the point, hyperbole helps not unless you have not heard of USA, France, Pakistan, Bangladesh etc.

&gt; devaluation of rupee aginst USD. 

Or it will boost exports and help reduce BOP gap

&gt;. India's wholesale price inflation runs at 30-year high, I

While true, it does not mean much if the country we are trading with also have inflation. In [CPI we rank 108](https://theprint.in/economy/you-thought-inflations-high-in-india-data-shows-at-least-100-countries-doing-worse/1020191/) (top rank for highest inflation), noone have done one for wholesale prices and I am lazy but a rough look at [this table](https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/producer-prices-change) puts Indian at more or less middle position. 

&gt;That's why they keep cutting the price offer for the 114 jets, it was $30 billion in 2014 now it is $18 billion (source)

Source for 30 Billion deal? I can only find the [Russia India JV of 364 Jets for that figur](https://thediplomat.com/2017/05/india-russia-5th-generation-fighter-jet-deal-to-be-signed-soon/)e, this [article from August 2018](https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/20-billion-defence-project-india-kicks-off-process-to-procure-110-fighter-jets-for-iaf/articleshow/63646424.cms) estimates the prices of USD 20 billion for 110 jets. And the cost asked in RFI have been known to go up even multiple times (see INS Vikramaditya)

Sri_Man_420

Indian military spending is something of a disaster for sure, with many horror stories (Russian carrier comes to mind), failed domestic attempts (not sure Tejas is still relevant, certainly not efficient). Probably a mix of corruption and ego that got them there.

India should have kept spending low, focused on buying off the shelf, and pump the rest of the money into developing their economy for export, especially high end tech. Like China, they could then have naturally grown the ability to make their own designs, or just tailor/co-develop foreign offers with local production as they did with the Su-30 and the Brahmos.

Not to mention there is a whole niche of untapped military potential in the drone space that Turkey of all countries now leads. Even India has the know how to get into it, and they failed at even that. It shows a lack of vision (like most countries but still).

By my count China is about to become the world's sole superpower in mere months, so it's game over anyway.

sanem48

[Lol wumao. You posted the same dogshit a year ago.](https://www.reddit.com/r/LessCredibleDefence/comments/pi8mul/can_india_build_a_defence_industry_like_china_did/hbo9zjw/)

SATARIBBUNS50BUX

Why does the CCP hate India so much? I don't feel threatened by them, why should you?

AdBitter2071

&gt;Indian goverment is already spending too much money on defence, yes, too much. Indian denfence buget took 15.5 % of its goverment spending....

15.5% of Union Budget, [Federal Budgets are 1.5x that](https://indianexpress.com/article/explained/rbi-state-budget-explained-gdp-economy-6056708/). A better metric would be as a % of GDP in which India is j[ust above the world average at 2.7% (world average in 2.2](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures)%, USA 3.5%, Russia 4.1%, Israel 5.2%, China 1.7%, Pakistan [2.8% which got cut down to 2.2%](https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/pakistan-army-says-defence-budget-for-2022-23-decreases-from-2-8-of-the-gdp-to-2-2/articleshow/92213022.cms) apparently for IMF talk, also many counties, Pak I know, don't include all expenses like Pensions in Defence Budget ) 

&gt; That's why they just pushed that half ass baked recirment scheme, 

I don't see the Problem with Agnipath, hiring [50%](https://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-by-2032-agnipath-50-percent-agniveer-in-army-1-5-lakh-recruitments-every-year-vice-chief-of-army-staff-bs-raju-2961079) of NCOs on short term contracts and retaining a forth of them on performance basis on after 4 years. The Scheme have been a success in the sense that there have been a [record number of application](https://www.dailypioneer.com/2022/page1/record-7-5l-apply-for-iaf-agnipath.htm) this year. 

&gt;that's why they are not spending on R&amp;D.

They want to spend on R&amp;D, hence Agnipath to reduce

I'm really confused and can't see the video well. Can someone please explain to me what's happening 

TombLord

It really hurts me to see indians see this as a political issue. How heartless does one has to be; to be effectively complicit to the oppression 

May Allah help my brothers and sisters of Kashmir for they've been fighting oppression for almost 8 decades now.

And they cry when Kashmiris execute 50 of their invading soldiers. The more they repress the Muslims they more they resist until Kashmir becomes ungovernable for the invaders like Vietnam was for the French

Just so you know, OIC [has come out](https://www.dawn.com/news/1467200) the other day and condemned in the strongest terms the recent wave of Indian terrorism and brutalities in occupied Jammu &amp; Kashmir.

There is hope for the Ummah after all.

these are almost as same as palestine and no one is talking about this 

tgay8587348

I'm obviously sad, disappointed and angry of what I just saw (if this is real btw). However, I feel bad when I'm angry at someone. Therefore, instead of asking Allah SWT to punish them. I will instead pray for them, so that He may forgive them. I believe the Prophet SAW did the same thing. It makes me feel like a better muslim, and as a better person overall.

KebabIsGood

Disgraceful, muslim countries need to come together now more than anytime before, to provide a counterbalance for the increasingly aggressive India and China. 

Lets keep this sub on Islam rather than politics please

asskayir

I mean relatively… sure, but that’s like being the tallest midget, you are still short. Look at the cost overruns, delays and issues for their 2 carriers. Vikrant was nearly a decade late and it is still flying mig29ks.

khan9813

The navy has always been a bit more forward looking , owing to them being much more geopolitically conscious . That said after 2027 it's going to slow down too (aside from deliveries of existing programs ).The plan is a 175 ships by 2035 iirc maybe it's changed

CorneliusTheIdolator

The Indian navy has its hits and misses in procurement. 

The misses include pretty bad ones.. helicopters, minesweepers, submarines, more.  The hits can get pretty good - an indigenous submarine,  being able to fly an indigenous plane (prototype) off an indigenous carrier..

I don't see much point in debating comparison with other branches.

But it receives the lowest priority in funding  of the services.

Also, it has to take a long view, given that vessels last decades..

Finally, it is instructive that the navy has had it's own naval architects , design bureau.This provides a base of expertise.

https://www.pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=2146753

The navy also has tended to work iteratively

The air force and army do not have equivalent..

---

It has always been interesting to me that some commentators have pointed struggles of the US Navy in essentially herding new acquisition to the hollowing out of expertise in the US navy in design etc (which it used to have). I don't want to overblow it , but it's always an interesting topic to think of in the case of government services - retaining expertise in house vs keeping them current and up to speed as a core competency. The interplay of private and public .. [The contribution of nasa research and the  total system performance boondoggle (eg F35 vs F47 ip)  , suggest that it's not a uniquely maritime/naval topic but has some cross service/cross government applicability)

barath_s

Generally, speaking from an outsider's perspective, the Indian Navy seems to be the most savvy branch in navigating the pitfalls that plague all of the Indian Armed-Forces Procurement process for sure. We can debate as to why, but I think it's worth examining how they balance planning procurement goals while being conscious of the realities of what they may need to face. I think it's too oversimplified to say, for example, that they don't need to worry about the Pakistan Navy or the Chinese Navy being a credible threat as much in their backyard, the way the IAF needs to.

Single-Braincelled

I’d say it’s the most balanced but it still relays alot of Russian naval assets. And given the performance of the Russian Black Sea fleet, which mind you has more modern vessels, I’m a bit of a in the 50/50 camp. 

The Indian navy’s main competition believe it or not is the Chinese navy and they have been expanding very rapidly with a lot of modern and indigenous designs, minus their first two carriers and China has been expanding rapidly in the Indian Ocean as well.

PanzerKomadant

OP, do you know why that tank brewed up like an *anaar* on Diwali? It is because of the way the ammunition is stored in the T-72 (and the T-90 as well). 22 rounds – each made up of two pieces, the projectile and the charge – are stored in a [rotating carousel under the turret](http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q197/hwj_chim/t72-109_zps5a660ed4.jpg). This carousel is not armoured to protect the propellant in case of a hit. Moreover, the propellant is not encased in brass or steel, but in paper-like cellulose covers. Even a tiny spark is liable to cause all 22 rounds to cook off. 

And this is the *better protected* part of the ammunition.

The remaining twenty or so rounds are clamped to the walls of the turret and hull wherever there is space. Those rounds are even more exposed to sparks and burning spall. Often one hit is all it takes to set all the propellant on fire, which is why you see T-72s burning furiously when hit, as is evident in the video you linked.

How do you mitigate the damage from such events? In the M1 Abrams, the ammunition is stored in armoured compartments with blow-off panels. In addition, each individual round is stored in an armoured container. You can see the "ready rack" in the back of the turret [here](http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/Abrams_Pics/Abrams-cutout.png). An armoured door operated by a knee switch separates the crew from the ready rack, and is opened only when the loader wishes to extract a new round from the rack.

This does three things. If a round explodes, containerisation ensures that the rest of the ammunition doesn't ignite as well. If the ammunition does cook off (this can happen for any reason: hull penetration, spall, etc.), the armoured bulkhead protects the crew from the ensuing explosion. At the same time, the [blow-off panels](http://i.imgur.com/DvCQ0x5.png) fail – much like a safety valve – and direct the energy from the explosion outside the tank, away from the crew compartment.

The Arjun Mk-II has a similar ammunition storage system (edit 1: similar to the Abrams, not the T-72). Protection levels in the Mk-I are lower, but they are still far better than what you have in the T-72 and T-90.

---------
Edit 2: *Mere desh ka Reddit sona ugale, ugale heere moti...* 

Bernard_Woolley

Indian Army is known for buying old junk at highly inflated prices through middle men. There are thousands of middle men with contacts in army and ministry, who do corrupt deals and give kickbacks.

15 years ago, my uncle used to sell eggs and milk in Delhi Cantonment. He built his network in Army ranks, then he suddenly turned into a middlemen who sells radio and satellite equipment to Army and Air Force. 

He now makes more money than he can count, but he says that I am a very small player.

His business model is to buy a product from suppliers, bribe the officers and resell it to army for 20x prices.

It's shameful how these corrupt officers, ministers and middle men are selling out the country. I hope Modi Govt. is a able to fix it and invest in domestic defense R&amp;D and manufacturing.


If ISRO can do Mars mission with a budget less than a Hollywood movie, there is no reason why we should be buying used junk from Russia and Israel at 20x prices.

Nice to see people becoming aware of the colossal mess that is Indian armed forces procurement.
One user /u/Bernard_Woolley has commented with some good details, while others have largely digressed from the topic and how it can be solved.


In mid 1980s Pakistan was looking forward to buy American Abrams  tanks. T-series of tanks  (T-55. 72 and 90 which we bought from USSR/Russia) are no match for western tanks like Abrams, Challenger, Merkava on one on one combat, as Russian tanks are very weak on armour.  T-series tanks were demolished during conflicts in Ukraine, Georgia, Iraq. 

T-series are based on philosophy of sheer numbers, speed and light weight defeating heavier and presumably slow and heavier tanks. But India doesn't have the budget to buy even cheap T-series tanks in large numbers. Russian tank warfare philosophy is heavily influenced by their T-34s fighting against heavier German Tiger and Panzers. But in that war, the actual kill ratio was 6:1 or higher (citation needed, can't remember) in favour of Germans.


So when Paki army showed interest in Abrams, Indian Army started shitting it's pants and asked for a heavy tank with superior firepower, mobility and armour to counter Pakis. Russians didn't have any such thing and the countries which could sell us equivalent tanks were willing to sell stuff only at obscenely expensive prices which left Army with no choice except to go indigenous. 

Indian tank Arjun is more like heavy western tanks than lighter Russian tanks and army at that time wanted it to be heavy. But when prototypes were built, Army rejected it and claimed that it was too heavy to be used among other things.

Then Pakis decided to buy T-80U from Ukraine and Indian Army showed it's much appreciated strategic logic to treat Arjun like a hot potato.

Over the years, Indian army has planted numerous theories against Arjun. Posting a few comparisons between what Army actually bought (T-90) and got kickbacks for and indigenous Arjun


1) Their first claim was that Arjun is too heavy, so is unusable in deserts.
Reality- Ground pressure per square inch of T-90, which decides the usability of tank in desert and soft terrain is higher. So Arjun is a better choice in desert.


2) T-90 doesn't have air-conditioning and most of it's electronics stopped working in heat. Now Army is using  DRDO's expertise which it gained while designing Arjun to add air-conditioning to T-90 in addition to buying air-conditioning units at high prices from Russians.


3) Transfer of technology which India paid for to manufacture vital T-90 components like barrel, ammunition etc was not done by Russians. So inspite of paying, we are still dependent on Russian imports to keep tank fleet operational.

4) As mentioned by other posters here, Arjun has much better armour, crew protection and mobility.

5) Arjun has better battlefield management system which allows tank formations to hunt as a coordinated wolf pack, electronics, firing system, crew comfort and space. I have seen both tanks from inside. T-90 is scarily claustrophobic compared to almost any other tank.


There are a number of other factors which will make this post a full fledged article, so ending it here.


Adding insult to injury, during comparative trials run by Army itself, ARJUN HAS DEFEATED T-90 in almost every single criteria including:

1) Crew protection

2) Fire control system

3) Mobility, speed

4) Water fording

Additionally, all technologies which can be used to upgrade or improve Arjun are available in India and can be done quickly as Arjun -Mk2 showed. But still, Army is not buying Arjun to replace obsolete Vijayanta, T-72s, . 

Do i really need to spell it out why Army and MOD are still buying T-90s instead of Arjun even when Russians have showed no interest in buying T-90s in large numbers ?



No-Kia

T-72s are miserable but it is not easy to decommission such a large number of tanks in a small time. Also, India has been upgrading the T-72s since 2004 in batches as part of Project Rhino. About 2000 out of those 2414 tanks would be upgraded completely and DRDO is incorporating a lot of technology used in Arjun in these upgrades as well. I believe ERA provision too was on the table. We would have to make do with T-72s for sometime at least till 2025, may be beyond too.

I don't know why Indian Army still wants to import T-90 though since Russia itself has stopped ordering them and are waiting for Armata. T-90 is a good tank and seen as one of the best tanks currently (ok not as good as Abrams or Challenger) but it can match China's Type-99 (Lord save us when China readies its MBT-3000). But still, carrying on with our current upgraded T-72s and going for more Arjun tanks should have been the way to go.

Anyway, the fact that India has decided not to pursue with the FMBT and carry on with development of Arjun tanks means they have a lot of confidence in Arjun and would like to have it as our main armour in future when the T-90s become irrelevant significantly.


Also, show some love to the Russians bro. Their tanks had a lot of influence on Arjun's development.

&gt;While the Arjun Mk-2 is substantially improved and more capable than the Arjun Mk-1; it is too heavy, limiting areas where it can be deployed by the Army. And that renders it unsuitable for the army’s operational requirements for a Main Battle Tank

http://www.forceindia.net/PressureontheGround.aspx

start123

Do not worry. Manohar Parrikar will shape up 10 years worth of uselessness

nicoise101

Awesome learning, this is why I come to reddit..not everytime is scoophop time

amazoniaram

What is the importance of tanks these days? Do we expect any decisive battle between india/pak, india/china based on tanks? We all got nukes now.

WhoWhaWhoWha

asfandyaar

The Indian government has approved a defense procurement plan worth ₹79,000 crore to enhance the operational capabilities of the Army, Navy, and Air Force.

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